thread: 2005-11-14 : Long and Short
On 2005-11-16, Chris wrote:
My whole point with the epic comment is this:
Epics are strongly built on structure. Most games that have presumed long term play are not.
The odds of simply "improvising" a coherent epic or novel without any thought to structure is akin to the million monkeys with a million typewriters pushing out classic literature. Except you only have 3-6 monkeys playing together- and one typewriter (the game). And you add dice into the mix.
In the same sense, if we want to see long term play produce coherent narratives, there needs to be a focus on structure. There also has to be a way of making solid episodes within the structure. You can't expect to write a novel if you can't even do a coherent sentence...
This makes KM go "Except."
We ain’t none of us monkeys; it’s hardly that random; epics “coherent” or not have an enormous tolerance for cruft; cruft is in fact one of the things I look for in a game; it is possible for the episodic structure to be an emergent property as well as an intentional one: you can look back and realize with a spooky chill that what you’d been thinking was cruft actually slots neatly into what you’re thinking is the story just so, just as much as you can look ahead and realize what you “need” to do next, cruft or not. —Structure something else (world-building; investment/underwriting), worry about the pace (which I still think is a terribly important factor), let the story come from all the things you’re doing. I think.
This makes luke go "i agree"
Fantasy roleplaying games in particular are god awful at providing structural mechanics. 99% of the texts expect you to sit down with the rules an intuitively understand how to play out fantastic epics. It might work for folks who have internalized the conventions of fantasy roleplaying games and fiction, but I know for a fact that it doesn't work for someone who's not intimate with the material -- because the games sure as hell don't help.
This makes Chris go "Uh-huh"
...worry about the pace (which I still think is a terribly important factor)
Pace is a MAJOR part of story structure...
This makes NK go "Can you guys put long responses in full comments?"
This makes MW go "Chris: Yes!"
This and your above post, I'm so totally right there with ya.
This makes KM go "Pace; structure."
Pace is how you approach structure. The same basic story structure can be thrillaminute or leisurely amble. The latter, I think, is more conducive to long, the former to short, but salt well, since I don’t have much empirically to go on there or even much of a theory at all.
This makes NinJ go "Right on, Chris."
I think that's why we've seen so many good short-form games and so few good long-form ones. It's easy to establish a structure on a small scale.
One of the places I'm going with my design is toward micro- and macro-scale structure. But I'm a long way from understanding it.
You know, Meg's in-process game, 1001 Nights, uses two scales of story. I'm very curious how that comes out.
