thread: 2006-09-08 : Salvation, damnation, justification, a la Sydney
On 2006-09-11, TonyLB wrote:
Good stuff. I disagree, but I understand.
1) You're saying, I think, that the value you get from the supernatural elements is a hope that you can't believe in, within the context of the natural world. A hope of literal eternity, of defiance of entropy, forever and ever amen. Yes?
I'm down with that. I've got a different take, but yours makes sense.
My take works with a more personal version of eternity, a sort of EternityLite, which is either "eternal enough for my purposes" or "happily ever after until the sequel" depending on the day of the week. For me the miracle of eternity is present in the moment, and literal eternity isn't a concern. I totally get that this is a cop-out, and so I can totally see the appeal of a super-nature that has the real, literal, eternity in a way which I genuinely didn't see prior to this conversation. In fact (as I'll discuss below) I now see two new appeals of the super-natural.
2) You're talking about having a unextinguishable spark of God within you, but not the whole world-creating flame, or at least a keyhole through which a spark can travel, but not a wide-open door (depending on whether we talk about God being inside you by containment or by projection). Yes?
I'm down with that. I've got a different take, but yours makes sense.
My take is that God, like a hologram or a piece of the T-1000, is always entirely present no matter how small the expression. "Hear Israel, the Lord God is One."
Which means that something I said earlier is just plain wrong. I said "The story of divine suffering isn't the story of human suffering." I now believe/see that I was wrong.
My second explanation for the importance of the supernatural in the story of Jesus is precisely to help people see past that distinction. The suffering of God and the suffering of man are of the same nature. The miracles of God and the miracles of man are of the same nature. The allegory and the divine light show are the same thing. The spark in your eye when you speak with passion is the same spark as the lightning bolt that reaves the ancient oak. The mysterious shape of our own ideas, hidden and vast beneath the surface of our mind are of the same quality as Leviathan, the great beast whose creation astounded Job.
I can look at the vast expanse of the universe (however I think that came about ... and I do hold a lot of contradictory ideas in my mind on that topic, all at the same time) and then look at the vast potential of the human mind, and see them both with the same awe, as the same sort of expression of divinity/spontaneity/whatever. I like that. It is intimidating and empowering.
And you see it a diametrically opposite way, but talking with you about it helped me to see it this way. We live in an age of miracles, eh?
So that's a lot for me to think about, and probably means that this will be my last post before I bow out and do some heavy reflection. Sydney, I think it would be totally legitimate for you to consider that a personal victory. You've directly helped me to take another step in my life-long spiritual journey. Thank you.
