thread: 2005-09-21 : The Red Sky A.M. Fishbowl
On 2005-09-26, Vincent wrote:
Move Starship Troopers to the have-read list.
THAT book belongs with Narnia and Dune. I'm reading it and I'm like, sure, that makes sense, I buy that, maybe in BIZARRO WORLD.
Add to the to-read list: This Kind of War by T. R. Fehrenbach.
Add to the have-read list: Suicide Charlie by Norman L. Russell and The Short Timers by Gustav Hasford (upon which Full Metal Jacket was based). I read these a while ago, figured I'd list 'em.
This makes SJF go "Bizarro World"
Heinlein's politics are just silly. His military psychology is not.
This makes VB go "I found it 'best case,' if you see what I mean..."
Compared to the frustration and disappointment and trouble in the memoirs I've been reading. Starship Troopers presents an army where every officer and every soldier is competent, good-hearted and true, and nobody's tested morally beyond their endurance. I expect for (let's say) one game of Red Sky A.M. out of a hundred to work out that way.
This makes VB go "oh, and yeah, it's his politics and social psych I found Bizarro."
This makes NinJ go "I'm glad you read it..."
and you got out of it what I did. But you see why I recommended it? It's a historic book, as it's really the creation of the "Space Marine" idea that's been knocked off every 20 minutes since, and it addresses the idea of having this very powerful military. I agree that he makes unrealistic assumptions that yield unlikely results, but that's how he saw it.
Stranger in a Strange Land is this huge Hippie Expand-Your-Mind thing, except he feels like he's gone too far, and at the end, he says "Women, even when they expand their minds, wear high heeled shoes and lipstick because it's in their nature. Now back to expanding your mind." and then he was all pissed that it turned into a drug culture book.
Heinlein == nutjob with a penchant for saying interesting things.
This makes BW go "Forever War"
Joe Haldeman's "Forever War" takes some of the same tropes as "Starship Troopers" (i.e., power armor troopers) and adds a post-Vietnam sensibility. Reportedly, RH liked Haldeman's book.
This makes Tobias go "Oh, and Fallen dragon"
Less for powersuit combat (thought it has it), more for resistance tactics against powersuits / what alien worlds do to you.
This makes Poh Tu go "Ender's Game."
Different perspective of military psychology. Possibly relevant?
This makes KM go "Ender's Game again."
Just for emphasis. Dehumanisation, empathy, the hardships of training and the effects of violence. Pushing people you care for too far. What cause are you really fighting for? This one is great.
This makes C go "Catch-22 & other suggestions"
the movie "Coming Home"
Ron Kovik's "Born on the Fourth of July"
The Tunnels of Cu-Chi (non-fiction account of literal dungeon-crawls in Vietnam)
Bill Mauldin's WW2 battlefield cartoons
and (I can't believe I'm defending him, but) have some respect, folks: Heinlein graduated Annapolis in the shadow of WW1, served in the Navy, fought TB in military hospitals, served in aeronautics in WW2.
He figured the morally grueling aspects of war were obvious-- so he wrote Starship Troopers about the patriotic things soldiers tell-themselves/ to justify the effort.
Watch PBS's P.O.W. docu, "Return With Honor"-- and you'll see how captured airmen devised Heinleinesque viewpoints, to maintain their dignity while captured.
This makes JBR go "Heinlein as Challenge"
Until his later books, it's useful to read most of Heinlein as challenges proposed to the reader's worldview rather than serious and well-thought-out social commentary. Remember, these were written in a matter of weeks -- sf at the time was a very by-your-fingernails existence.
This makes SLB go "John Ringo for powersuit tactics"
