2009-04-08 : Mechaton Area-effect Weapon Rules
Hey, try these on. They came to me with a head slap. It's possible I learned them from Uriel, actually, then forgot them, then remembered them and thought I made them up. That wouldn't surprise me a bit.
1. Target an area. How big? Let's say a circle 3 across for now. You're attacking every mech inside the circle (even your own, if you have any in there).
2. You have an attack number, of course. Every target mech needs a defense number, so any that don't have one, this activates. It activates them now, but in their standing initiative order. This will sometimes be dice-intensive, but hey, you're the one who keeps asking for area-effect weapon rules.
3. Compare your attack number in turn with each mech's defense number. Roll damage dice accordingly.
The end!
For example: I'm attacking an area with 3 mechs in it, A B and C. My attack number is 6. A has already gone this turn; A's defense is 4. B and C haven't gone yet; their initiative order is B then C.
I roll 2 damage dice (6-4=2) against A.
B is up! B declares a target, rolls dice, assigns a defense. Let's say defense 5. I roll 1 damage die (6-5=1) against B.
C is up! C declares a target, rolls dice, assigns a defense. Let's say defense 3. I roll 3 damage dice (6-3=3) against B.
I finish my go.
B finishes her go. She attacks, moves, spots, as applicable; her attack might activate a new mech, as usual. Eventually, though, she's all done.
C finishes her go. Same thing.
In sum: when you attack an area, compare your one attack number with each target's own defense number, and roll separate damage dice against each.
Now, as is there's no downside, so if it's a choice everybody will always choose area-effect. I recommend one of the following instead:
1. All artillery, and only artillery, is area-effect.
2. When you've overloaded a range, instead of rolling a red d8 you make area-effect attacks at that range.
3. When you've overloaded a range, when you declare your target each go, you declare whether you'll roll a red d8 or make an area-effect attack.
My favorite is (2), but I think any of those will work out.
1. On 2009-04-08, Mantisking said:
Would a d8 area effect attack be too broken?
2. On 2009-04-08, Vincent said:
No.
3. On 2009-04-08, Simon C said:
That's not bad. Certainly better than the previous rules.
I think there's going to be a lot of tweaking in the area these weapons cover. For them to be tactically significant, you want them to force mechs to spread out to a point where it's affecting their combat effectiveness. In other words, the choice should be "Do I spread out to avoid area effect, or bunch up to benefit from spotting and cover and such?"
With that in mind, I'm not sure that 3 is enough. I think you could make it 4 or 5 without serious repercussions. This could also be an option, like one-shot rockets and direct fire range. In fact, it's probably best, if it is a fixed amount, to make it a function of direct fire range, so 1/3 or 1/2 of direct fire range.
4. On 2009-04-09, Ben Lehman said:
Hrm... Thinking about option 2.
Is there a build with 2R HtH (area effect) + 2B? That seems pretty sweet, to me. (Not broken sweet. Just strong.)
5. On 2009-04-09, David Artman said:
I have thought of another balance mechanism, but my memory of the full rules is (admittedly) weak:
What if AoE was only available to mechs with two artillery attachments, rather than all artillery weapons? The two attachments wouldn't grant two attacks, ever—rather, they are like a "barrage" fire frrom coordinated artillery (which is seriously AoE, in reality).
Another tack is to make AoE take two full shooting rounds, with no move in between. One round spent "ranging" (i.e. doing nothing), the second round firing the AoE. Then it becomes a sort of push-pull: the opposition gets a round of warning ("scatter, troops!") and yet it lets the attacker possibly "feint" by ranging then aborting on the second round to move and fire normally. And then it could apply to any weapon type, up to and including HtH (whirlwind attack, or wind-up for a haymaker).
Finally, I think one could do something with the "standard" measuring stick, to let AoE have some versatility, as to the shape of the area. Rather than merely 3 diameter, what if it could be any area that can be enclosed by bringing the two ends of the measuring stick together? Then it could be a rough circle-ish, a square, even a cone-ish shape. Might even warrant changing the way a measuring stick is built (i.e. make it all out of 1-unit rods).
Anyone dig the above?
6. On 2009-04-09, Mantisking said:
David Artman wrote "What if AoE was only available to mechs with two artillery attachments, rather than all artillery weapons? The two attachments wouldn't grant two attacks, ever—rather, they are like a "barrage" fire frrom coordinated artillery (which is seriously AoE, in reality).
This sounds like it would be a good optional rule.
Another tack is to make AoE take two full shooting rounds, with no move in between. One round spent "ranging" (i.e. doing nothing), the second round firing the AoE. Then it becomes a sort of push-pull: the opposition gets a round of warning ("scatter, troops!") and yet it lets the attacker possibly "feint" by ranging then aborting on the second round to move and fire normally. And then it could apply to any weapon type, up to and including HtH (whirlwind attack, or wind-up for a haymaker).
This on the other hand, in my opinion, adds to record keeping and complexity. I don't want to have to remember if I used an artillery attack from a specific mech on the previous turn when it's my go. Also, given the existence of the Doom Clock and the ability for multiple players to tic it down, there's no gaurantee of a follow-up shot.
Finally, I think one could do something with the "standard" measuring stick, to let AoE have some versatility, as to the shape of the area. Rather than merely 3 diameter, what if it could be any area that can be enclosed by bringing the two ends of the measuring stick together? Then it could be a rough circle-ish, a square, even a cone-ish shape. Might even warrant changing the way a measuring stick is built (i.e. make it all out of 1-unit rods).
There are some of us who don't use the ruler and have switched to tape measures.
7. On 2009-04-13, Uriel said:
I dunno if I had this idea first or not Vincent, but I've played with it. It works, but it gobbles up dice pretty fast that has to stay at the table once rolled.
My preferred method right now is that only your target is activated; secondary targets that already have a defense value take damage as usual if it's low enough to be overcome by the attack; secondary targets that doesn't have a defense value yet take the damage when they act. I keep track of this "delayed" damage by placing a number of pennies or other small coins equal to the damage dealt next to the mecha and then either a die or small piece of paper on top of that to remember the attack value. It disrupt the flow of the game less I think.
I think that the idea that extra artillery attachments can be used to increase AoE instead of being rolled is very fine. Another thing I'm play testing right now is that you can increase AoE range by rolling less damage dice.
And that you can increase sensor range by taking extra minus to your die roll.
David has a good idea about varying the shape of the AoE. I think our standard firing pattern for mass area effect in when I was an artillerist was 40x120 meters if I'm not mistaken for a battery of 4 15.5 cm haubits.
Easiest way IMHO to measure AOE in Mechaton: join together 16 Hinge Cylinder 1 x 3 Locking with 1 Finger and 2 Fingers On Ends, without Hole (just so we aren't confused about which part I'm talking about :) and click them one step: you get a circle that has an inner diameter of almost 3 inches. Great as a standard target measure that almost all tabletop strategy games has, but it can also be reconfigured to squares or rectangles. Although at it smallest, with one side being 1 hinge and the other being 7 which is a little more than 4 inches long, it not an AoE attack any longer, it's just a line between mecha A and B. You can abuse this even more by bending into a sort of C but that is just retarded.
anyway AoE attacks rules, the last three games were full of hilarious friendly fire.
What I am really curious about though is if you played with those extra action for high initiative?
8. On 2009-04-13, Vincent said:
We've been playing that, yes, your mech goes on both your initiative numbers, if you have two. You can't move on your second go, but you can attack and spot, and you must replace your defense.
We haven't tested it well yet, though. By coincidence, almost every mech with 2 initiative dice has had only hand-to-hand weapons, so most second goes haven't included an attack. (I can explain why to anyone who a. cares but b. doesn't already see why, just ask.)
At the risk of giving away my next battle's strategy, I do intend to test it a little more thoroughly.
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