2005-07-25 : Dogs in the Vineyard, Sold Out

I'm out of books.

I'm printing a whole new batch - the so-called "second edition," although there's little enough new material in it - for GenCon. I'll start accepting preorders in maybe a week or two. I'm still waffling whether to increase the price and if so how much, I'll know better when I find out how much more it costs to print.

I'll be offering an "upgrade" deal for people who already own the first book, details when I know 'em. But really, nothing's different except those two tiny rules plus a few illustrations - if you already own the book, you already own the game, don't feel like you gotta upgrade.

I'll update the PDFs on the Forge Bookshelf - if you're authorized to download 'em now, you can just come back after GenCon and redownload. No upgrade price, no reauthorization, just download 'em. I'll send out a mass emailing about it when it's time.

Anything else?

1. On 2005-07-25, La Ludisto said:

Out of curiosity, how large was your initial print run?


direct link

This makes...
Lud go "500."*
VB go "Actually..."*
MW go "25s?"*
VB go "Yep. but..."*

*click in for more

2. On 2005-07-25, Clinton R. Nixon said:

You got a sale from me: my first one's falling to pieces over here from use.


3. On 2005-07-25, Ginger Stampley said:

I think all the people I play with who wanted one got orders from the first print run, but I'm not sure everyone I know who wanted one got one.

I look forward to hearing about the upgrade deal. Mine isn't falling to pieces yet, but it does travel a lot.


4. On 2005-07-25, Martin Ralya said:

Checking out DitV is on my shortlist for GenCon, and I'm quite excited about it. Nothing else to say. ;)


5. On 2005-07-25, Judd said:

When will the new edition be available for download?

I'm at grad. school all week with free printing staring me in the face.


6. On 2005-07-25, John Harper said:

Dangit. I just gave my copy away. I was gonna order a replacement tonight. Oh well. I can wait for the next printing, IF I MUST. If I lick or pet the screen while browsing the PDF, is that a cry for help?


7. On 2005-07-26, Chris said:

I haven't even played it, and my copy has wear to it.  What's that say?

Your Structure of Play is the dopest shiznat ever.  Of course I'm getting the new copy (and hoping the cover has the Tree of Life on it!).


8. On 2005-07-26, Jonas Barka said:

I got a question. If you order a printed copy of the game, do you get a .pdf version at no additional cost.

The homepage seems to hint at something like this but it is never spelled out.

/ Jonas

Unrealities of Mine


9. On 2005-07-26, Jonas Barka said:

Another question: How much cheaper will the game be at Gencon compared to ordering it to Europe. I got a not-so-close friend going to Gencon and I wonder if it would be worth the fuss to get her to get me a copy (and maybe Polaris too).


10. On 2005-07-26, Vincent said:

Hey Jonas.

If you buy the book, you get the PDFs for asking. You have to ask, because it's not automated in any way and I have to process it by hand.

I'll be charging $22 per book at GenCon. After GenCon, I'll probably increase the price by a buck or two, so expect it to be around $26 shipped to Europe.

Kenneth Hite said about Dogs that its price isn't printed on the cover "because selling things is eeeevil." That's not why. The real reason is "I may change my mind again." I'm such an amateur.


direct link

This makes...
NB go "re: PDFs for asking"*

*click in for more

11. On 2005-07-26, GamerChick said:

I bought the printed edition (and have read it through twice now, though I'm still a little confused), and would *love* to get the PDF.  I have this goal of getting all of my gaming books onto my laptop so that's all I have to carry besides dice.

gamerchick AT gamerfellowship DOT org


12. On 2005-07-26, Ninja Monkey J said:

GamerChick, that confusion is a serious issue. I never understand games by reading them. Not even a little. I think I'll write an article on the subject.


13. On 2005-07-26, Vincent said:

GamerChick: Check your mailbox for a form letter from me.


14. On 2005-07-27, Avram said:

W00t! One of my operatives will pick up a copy at the con.


15. On 2005-07-27, GamerChick said:

Got it, thanks Vincent!

Ninja Monkey J: I learn better by playing than by reading, certainly, but that's not the complete cause of my confusion.  I raised this briefly on Ginger's blog, with a useful-but-wanting-more response from Vincent there.  I have an enormous problem overcoming my resistance to the *setting*, while being completely enchanted by the mechanics and structure.

If it makes me think that hard, it can't be bad.  I'd love a chance to play it with someone who understands it all.


16. On 2005-07-27, Vincent said:

J's group rejected the game for much the same reason you do, as it happens.

I'd be happy to talk more about it. The biggest issue is the Faith's sexism, right?


17. On 2005-07-27, GamerChick said:

Certainly the sexism is a big part of it, but I see that as an outgrowth of the general rigidity of gender roles.  Not just gender roles, either - there's a cultural absolutism that is very much at odds with my generally chaotic nature.  Further, I'm concerned that that is so intrinsic to the game that I couldn't just wander off with the tantalizing mechanic and play with that in another millieu.

And... I find myself regretting that.  Ordinarily I have no trouble with setting aside a game as "not for me", but doggone it, I'm intrigued by the mechanic and really want to see it in play.  The reports of actual play I've seen interest me very much.  I just can't see myself running in that world, or playing in it for an extended period.


18. On 2005-07-27, Meguey said:

GammerChick (which Hi, btw), I hear you. I've written a lot (it feels like) about gender and gaming over at the Forge. Give the game a try. The female Dogs are just as awesome, and the way the gender politics play out can be surprizing, and revealing about the players.

Also, where is Ginger's blog? Anyone?


19. On 2005-07-27, Ninja Monkey J said:

GC, my group totally wussed out when they saw the opportunity to discuss something of import. My feeling was, if you use the setting, you get to - in fact, have to say something about rigid social structures, gender, violence, religion, love, and so on.

Without the difficult setting, it's too easy to avoid the issues.

It sounds to me like it's exactly the setting you want to play in.


20. On 2005-07-27, Ginger Stampley said:

Ginger's blog is here:

I've finally given up and started sorting out my Dogs posts, so there's a (small but growing) Dogs category.


direct link

This makes...
VB go "Linked."
GJS go "Thanks! I always forget to link because I'm used to automagical linking."

21. On 2005-07-28, Vincent said:

Try this.

Dogs is inescapably concerned with social hierarchy and institution. Even though Dogs are radical - they cannot enforce or restore the status quo - their radicalism a) must deal with, cannot escape, GamerChick's cultural absolutism, and b) is founded on violence.

Radical or not, you make people do what you tell them to by threatening them with damnation or a gun. That's not going to be everybody's game! I can't possibly begrudge that.

GamerChick, I think your sense that it pervades the game's rules is right on, too. No casual adaptation could be free of it. I think that if you want to play with the mechanics you'll have to wait for - or make for yourself - a non-casual adaptation. (Do I have a non-casual adaptation simmering in my head? I do indeed. Will it be a long wait? Oh yes, long.)


22. On 2005-08-11, Falc said:

Curse my procrastination, I finally decide to buy DitV after reading so much good about it and now it's out of print...


Now, I understand why you didn't have this option while the books were available, but I was wondering if it were possible for me to buy the pdf *now* (to satisfy my curiosity and all) but being able to recoup those 14$ when I purchase the actual book once it's back in print?


23. On 2005-08-11, Vincent said:

Falc: Sure thing.

In fact that's been available all along, to anybody who asks.

(If anybody feels like I outed them $8 by not publicizing this more aggressively, email me and I'll make good, of course.)


24. On 2005-08-11, Vincent said:

I've just started taking preorders for the new Dogs book.

Preordered, it's $24 shipped within North America, $26 shipped worldwide.

I will not fulfill until September. Maybe not until the middle of September! Don't preorder if you can't stand that.

Okay, honestly, I might be able to ship books before then, and if I can I will, but don't count on it.

You can go ahead and buy the PDF now if you want to, though. It's still the old PDF, but sometime soon after GenCon I'll be upgrading the file on the Forge Bookshelf. When that happens, I'll send out a mass mailing to everybody to come download the new one if you want it. You'll upgrade automatically and for free.

Once I'm shipping orders, I'll figure out what to do for print upgrades - for people who already own the old book and want a copy of the new one. I'm pretty sure it'll be: pay me for the new book minus $14. It'll be the same for anybody who owns the PDF and wants to upgrade to print.


The book looks really good, by the way.


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