2014-07-23 : The Trouble with RPGs
Following from Procedure, Components, Object, Strategy, Style; Strategy vs Style; Objects of RPGs; Non-Endstate Objects, Strategy & Style; The Object and Particular Strategy; and Reminder: Object Schmobject.
In this game, the object is to __. You might not be able to do it, though, because __.
In Sorcerer, the object is to resolve your kicker somehow, in some measure, in your own favor. You might not be able to do it, though, because your demons are not your friends, and you can't fully control them.
In Apocalypse World, the object is to make something of your world. You might not be able to do it, though, because in your world resources are scarce, allies are rare, and institutions do not stand.
In Burning Wheel, the object is to win what you believe. You might not be able to do it, though, because every fight is a fight you can lose.
In Dogs in the Vineyard, the object is to bring peace and resolution to the people of the towns you visit. You might not be able to do it, though, because there are always bastards and bad luck.
Let's have some more! No quibbling, no squabbling, just choose a game you know and fill in the blanks.
1. On 2014-07-23, Mendez said:
In Sea Dracula, the object is to prove your theory to the court. You might not be able to do it, though, because there's a trial about unrelated issues in your way at said court.
2. On 2014-07-23, Nick said:
In Dog Eat Dog, the object is to find a resolution that works for the occupiers and the natives. You might not be able to do it, though, because their desires are incompatible on some pretty fundamental level.
3. On 2014-07-23, Vincent said:
In Suldrup, by Mikkel Baekgaard, the object isn't to somehow discover who murdered her - we'll never know - but to just maybe get some insight into why she died. We might not be able to do it, though, because information is thin and insight is hard.
4. On 2014-07-23, ndp said:
In World Wide Wresting, the object is to become a legendary wrestling superstar. You might not be able to do it, though, because audience's are fickle, other wrestlers are gunning for you and sometimes you just have shit bad luck.
In Annalise, the object is to resolve your vulnerability to the terrible thing you've attracted to yourself. You might not be able to do it, though, because it knows more about you than you do and you might not be strong enough to fight it.
In InSpectres, the object is to solve the mystery with enough resources left to improve your franchise. You might not be able to, though, because resources are contingent on luck and you need them for other things too.
This makes...
ndp go "whoops. can't spell my own games name."
5. On 2014-07-23, Andy said:
Here's an interesting followup on Burning Wheel: in the Adventure Burner, Luke talks about the centrality of Beliefs to the players' role. That the role of the GM is to present challenges to those Beliefs, in an attempt to get them to yield...or else to get the player to double down on them.
So if the player's object is to win what you believe, the GM's object is to make sure that's what you really believe, by trying to make you give up on it.
6. On 2014-07-23, Vincent said:
Marvelous! Keep 'em coming, everybody.
7. On 2014-07-23, Gwion said:
What about Torchbearer? I have a hard time figuring this one out.
8. On 2014-07-23, Weeks said:
In Universalis, the object is to collaborate on a narrative by pushing for your exact vision of how things should go next. You might not be able to do it, though, because your friends have the same object and abilities, but different visions.
9. On 2014-07-23, Weeks said:
In Torchbearer, the object is to survive the dungeon and come out of it with a net gain of tactical assets. You might not be able to do it, though, because the grind is a bitch and the GM is not on your side.
10. On 2014-07-23, Gwion said:
But what about the fate & persona points? Those are the real life savers that make all the difference. The game is not about those but they are your most powerful weapon/resource. You are more likely to fail/die because you ran out of them than because the GM is harsh with the grind. (But both are linked I guess)
11. On 2014-07-23, E. Torner said:
In Unknown Armies, the object is to gain some level of mastery over your place in the creepy supernatural world. You might no be able to, though, because that creepy supernatural world might demand too much of your health/selfhood/sanity for you to enjoy it.
This makes...
ET go "This is fun!"
VB go "isn't it?"*
AH go "Refreshing!"*
*click in for more
12. On 2014-07-23, E. Torner said:
In Fiasco, the object is to pursue your character's petty ambitions to their logical end AND come out smelling like a rose. You might not be able to do it, though, because the story will arc in unexpected places and/or you or your fellow players may not want your character to have anything he/she wants.
13. On 2014-07-23, Alan said:
In Mythender, the object is to slay all of the gods. You might not be able to do it though, because the power you need to slay a gods threatens to turn you into a new god.
14. On 2014-07-23, JDCorley said:
In Vampire: the Masquerade (1991), you win by "...surviving. If the character has some other great overwhelming drive, such as revenge, accomplishing it is also a measure of success. Additionally, stories have conclusions that either benefit or harm the characters. If the characters learn that a presumed serial killer is really a Vampire and manage to halt her rampage, then they "win." If they never even find out just who was behind the murders, much less manage to stop her, then they lose." (p.22)
You might not be able to do it, though, because the entirety of the game world, including portions of your own personality, is set up to kill you and fuck up what you care about, and there's a special player called a Storyteller who is there to play out that antagonism.
This makes...
Kit go "I particularly like how you call out the ST."
JDC go "The rules do that..."*
*click in for more
15. On 2014-07-23, Vincent said:
JDCorley: Nice!
This makes...
JDC go "We live in an age of wonders, where I can check out a 1991 game's object in 10 minutes from drivethrurpg!"
16. On 2014-07-23, Gwion said:
Maybe:
In Torchbearer, the object is to survive the dungeon and to come out of it with a net gain. You might not be able to do it, though, because you did not let your belief and your personality traits get you in trouble? (Not certain).
17. On 2014-07-23, Andy said:
In Torchbearer, the object is to become a heroic badass. You might not be able to do it, though, because you start out as despised chump change, there's loads of pressure on you, and being a hero gets you killed.
18. On 2014-07-23, Kit said:
In Promethean: the Created, the object is to understand what it means to be human, and in so doing, become human. You might not be able to do it, though, because it's heartbreaking to watch yourself fail and be rejected and destroy under your heavy fists everything you mean to caress.
19. On 2014-07-23, Kit said:
Alternative for Dogs:
In Dogs in the Vineyard, the object is to bring peace and resolution to the people of the towns you visit. You might not be able to do it, though, because guns don't bring real peace or resolution, and it's so hard not to use them.
This makes...
VB go "+1"
20. On 2014-07-23, derspiny said:
In this thread, the object is to summarize individual games to a single key aspect. You might not be able to succeed, because good games are weird, multifaceted things that depend partly on their players.
21. On 2014-07-23, Vincent said:
Derspiny: Correct! I encourage you to try anyway, for the fun and the challenge.
22. On 2014-07-23, derspiny said:
Vincent: Well, of course. From another discussion about this thread: "I think that if you can't answer this [about your game], you have a problem in your design, or at least, in your thinking about it. This is Vincent saying 'RPGs are games, dammit, don't think they're not.'"
I don't have any direct contributions, but I'm loving the thread. :D
23. On 2014-07-23, Joao said:
In Hearthstone, the object is to bring your opponent's life to zero while keeping yours above it. You might not be able to do it, though, because your opponent did it first.
24. On 2014-07-23, silby said:
In The Quiet Year, the object is to build something before the Frost Shepards come. You might not be able to do it, though, because communities can be torn apart more easily than they can band together.
25. On 2014-07-23, Joao said:
In AW:Dark Ages, the object is to playest the heck out of its latest rules in order to find out what the final game's object might be. You might not be able to do it, though, because the latest rules might not available yet.
26. On 2014-07-23, Meguey said:
In 1,001 Nights, the object is to achieve your ambition. You might not be able to do it though, because you might not win enough dice to keep from being beheaded.
In Psi*Run,the object is to answer your questions ad figure out what's going on. You might not be able to do it though, because the chasers could catch you.
27. On 2014-07-23, silby said:
(As an aside, in games that aren't weird, the object is to get the biggest number. You might not be able to, though, because other players might be better at getting big numbers than you are.)
This makes...
VB go "sometimes, the smallest number."*
AH go "Other objectives..."*
EJS go "WLOG"*
Ad go "It doesn't always..."*
WM go "Golf"*
*click in for more
28. On 2014-07-23, E. Torner said:
In Dread, the object of the game is to survive ... just barely and thoroughly shaken. You might not do it, though, because your character's life is tied to A) your proactivity and B) your Jenga ability.
29. On 2014-07-23, Moreno R. said:
In "my life with master", the object of the game is to kill the master!
This makes...
CW go "you might not be able to..."*
JMMM go "We once failed to kill the master."*
*click in for more
30. On 2014-07-23, Alex d. said:
In The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchausen the object is to tell the most amazing tale of an adventure you have been on. You might not do it because other people question your veracity, interrupt your story with ridiculous questions and demand explanations.
31. On 2014-07-23, Marshall B said:
In the Rustbelt, the object is to resolve your Spike somehow in your favor without making a horrible compromise, but you might not be able to because the world is horrible and compromises are plentiful and easier.
32. On 2014-07-23, Michael S. Miller said:
In Serial Homicide Unit, the object is to catch the killer before he escapes AND to achieve your civilian character's hope. You might not do it though, because the killer has luck on his side and the other players might want your civilian to lose.
In With Great Power..., the object is to defeat the villain's plan without being overwhelmed by suffering. You might not do it, though, because power always brings suffering along with it.
In Discernment, the object is to guess the secret soul quality of the subject. You might not do it, though, because reading meaning into other people's role-playing is tricky.
(Embarrassingly, this took me ten full minutes to write out. It really has me looking at my games from a different POV. Thanks.)
33. On 2014-07-23, Rich Forest said:
In Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game, the object is to become the world warrior champion. You might not be able to do it, though, because everyone else wants it, too.
This makes...
ET go "Props to Richard for bringing in the big guns"
34. On 2014-07-23, Matthew Nielsen said:
In Our Last Best Hope, the object is to save the world (from some disaster). You might not be able to do it, though, because you're isolated with limited time and resources, and may not be able to come together as a crew well enough.
35. On 2014-07-24, Florian H. said:
In "Adventurer Conqueror King" the objective is to rise above the rabble and become a powerful and influential figure who decides the fate of empires. You might not be able to do it, though, because the current powers have risen up through being wicked and ruthless and you have to beat them at their own game or end up in a ditch, stripped of your belongings, abandoned and dead.
36. On 2014-07-24, Slow Dog said:
In 3:16, the objective is to kill all alien life in the Cosmos to . You might not be able to do it, though, because you may decide to apply your destructive technology to a more repugnant target.
37. On 2014-07-24, Ravious said:
In Werewolf the Forsaken the objective is to control your territory. You might not be able to do it, though, because spirits and other denizens are always trying make a mess of things.
38. On 2014-07-24, PaulCzege said:
In My Life with Master the object is to destroy the Master. You might not be able to do it because another player might get to it first.
In My Life with Master the object is to learn the workings of dysfunctional, controlling relationships. You might not be able to do it because who takes the themes and life lessons in RPGs seriously?
In My Life with Master the object is to discover aspects of creative collaboration in roleplaying that aren't a part of traditional RPGs. You might not be able to do it though because it's hard to set aside years of efforts to master traditonal aspects of RPGs for some unknown goofball's different ideas.
What ambitious RPG has just one object?
39. On 2014-07-24, silby said:
In Rock of Tahamaat, the Rock's objective is to squelch all dissension. You might not be able to do it because Vincent is playing a trick on you.
40. On 2014-07-24, Vincent said:
Paul Czege, in marginalia: "Ah, I see your "multiple simultaneous objects" comment on the other post now. So, if you allow for multiple simultaneous objects, how do you avoid the slippery slope to every player being allowed a subjectively different idea of what the game's object is?"
In some games, every player having a subjectively different idea of the game's object is fine. In others, you want them on the same page for reals. Many RPGs have objects that allow a range of understanding, and as long as every player's understanding falls within range, so that they all make strategically compatible choices, the game's fine.
As the designer, you ought know your game's needs, at least well enough to make decisions about how and whether to communicate them.
41. On 2014-07-24, Weeks said:
In The Sundered Land: A Doomed Pilgrim in the Ruins of the Future, the object is to delight yourself and others by inserting narrative color that resonates well with the narrative the other players are inserting. You might not be able to do it, though, because others go first and there's nothing to keep and and them on the same page.
42. On 2014-07-24, Vincent said:
Weeks: Always think so! My doomed pilgrim's life depends on it.
43. On 2014-07-24, Sean said:
In Call of Cthulhu, the object is to watch your investigator deteriorate into madness as his mind is blasted by exposure to the horrible truth. You might not be able to do it, though, because that takes a while and is kind of depressing, and you could just have a madcap romp through the world murdering cultists instead.
This makes...
AH go "Best one so far"
44. On 2014-07-24, Tim C Koppang said:
For RPGs with a GM, don't we need at least two objects? Or perhaps one over-arching object, and two sub-objects: one for the GM and another for the player(s).
45. On 2014-07-25, Sean F said:
In 'Lady Blackbird' the objective is to get The Owl free from The Hand Of Sorrow, The Lady to Uriah Flint, and to decide what the nature of their relationship is. You might not be able to do it though, because luck may work against your character and The Owl, The Lady may give up her quest to attend to other distractions, and Uriah Flint may not ultimately be deemed worthy of her attention.
In 'Enoch' the objective is to make the hell-scape that was western America before the apocalypse a better place to live. You might not be able to do it though, because crazed supermen roaming the wilderness, mutant animals, societies in perpetual war, a rogue AIs seeking to subjugate the human race, and a desert of murderous nanites all seek to kill anyone who draws attention to themselves.
In Monopoly the objective is to make every other player run out of money. You might not be able to do it though, because the other players can use the same tools you have access to in order to make you run out of money first.
46. On 2014-07-25, Vincent said:
Tim: For many games we need two objects, yes!
47. On 2014-07-27, Chris Chinn said:
In Lacuna, the object is to be a good agent, but you might not succeed because the very system you work for turns against you.
(Notice that 3:16 is nearly identical, except with a military theme...)
48. On 2014-07-27, Rickard said:
The goal in Goat Simulator is non-existent, and is therefor made up by the player from the tools, toys, limitations and dynamics.
49. On 2014-07-29, Vaughn said:
The goal in Stars Without Number is to become an influential and important figure in your respective stellar system. You might not be able to do this because space is dangerous, pirates, corporations, and governments will all try to screw you and you often have to act outside of the law to acquire the objects you need to succeed.
50. On 2014-07-30, Rickard said:
The goal in GURPS is non-existent (for the players) because it's a game engine that you (the game master) use to create a game of your own with it's own goals.
This makes...
Rick go "My point being: it's easy to prove a point if you only take examples that has that point."
VB go "do you remember my point?"*
*click in for more
51. On 2014-07-30, Raisin said:
In Call of Cthulhu, the object is to save the world/town/characters from creatures of the mythos and humans corrupted by it, you might not be able to do it, though, because your investigator deteriorate into madness as his mind is blasted by exposure to the horrible truth.
52. On 2014-08-10, Standback said:
In Primetime Adventures, the object is to create a compelling character arc by finding why surrounding events (whatever they may be) are deeply meaningful to your character. You will always be able to do it, although the character arc might be a tragic one.
53. On 2014-08-12, kenf said:
In Moldvay Basic D&D:
The object is to garner wealth and power from the underworld. You might not be able to do it though because the underworld is a hostile environment full of deadly monsters and traps.
The object is to make your character more powerful in conflicts. You might not be able to do it though because conflicts are risky and can make your character less powerful or defunct.
The object is to have fun with your friends by collectively generating what happens to some imaginary para-military adventurers as they try to garner wealth, power and mission success in an eccentric medieval-fantasy-themed underworld. You might not be able to do it though because lots of things can happen in play that are not fun.
The object is to immerse yourself in the moment-by-moment existence of an imaginary para-military adventurer in a medieval-fantasy-themed underworld. You might not be able to do it though because the game components and procedures, the other players, and your own expectations and reactions can get in the way.
The object is to enable the other players to enjoy immersing themselves in the moment-by-moment existence of imaginary para-military adventurers in a quirky medieval-fantasy-themed underworld. You might not be able to do it though because there is all kinds of stuff in play that is outside your control.
54. On 2014-08-12, kenf said:
In Moldvay Basic D&D the object is to get your character to level 4. You might not be able to do it though because your character can easily die, or your DM is likely to stop running the campaign, before you can do that.
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