anyway.

Same goes for any of my games, in fact.

Sorry, not a rules question.  A getting started question;

I see you buy your bricks from specialized sellers.  I suppose that is great if you already know what you want.  My LEGO experience is free form build from a pile of raw materials, however.  So, I feel like I should have stock for experimenting with builds.

Do you notice your builds containing pieces from particular lines?  Can you recommend specific kits I might find to build a stock base for experimenting?

Perhaps I'm just old fashioned, but CAD and other such tools don't have the same creative fire as manipulatives.

If you're old fashioned, so am I and I don't want to be new.

If you can find the old Star Wars micro sets, those were good. The new micro sets - there's a blue and white one with a robot, a tan one with a monkey, a red one with a helicopter I think - those are good too. (4915-4918 are their product numbers.)

I have so many gallons of Lego from years of buying sets that I don't buy sets any more. If you're starting from scratch - I dunno what. Settle in, start building a pile.

The problem I ran into was, despite having a few thousand Lego, I was woefully short on parts that were useful for building tiny mechs.  Small, yes, but not tiny like all the examples.

Buying stock kits for mech parts results in a lot of parts that are bigger than what I want.  The tiny sets (robot, monkey, race car line, etc) are okay, but they're expensive for what you're getting.

I found the most value out of buying parts from Bricklink.  And the Mechaton rulebook gives a pretty good starting point for "useful pieces."  I've got a list of parts that I put into the starter sets I built.  But for personal use, I think just finding a well-stocked, reasonably-priced Bricklink store and adding cool-looking tiny parts until you hit your budget is the way to go.

Even as a kid, I was always looking at the parts list on the back of the box to see if there was anything rare or useful or whatever.

In my experience, you want lots of clips and posts. They make great hinges in a tiny amount of space.

Click hinges, such as those in the Designer sets Vincent's talking about are OK, but I wind up using them to make static angles more than actual hinges; the chances of a guy's ankle needing to be in 15?? increments are slim.

I think in general, really little kits solve the same issues that we need to solve when building for Mechaton, so they're both cost-effective and specifically useful.

Soren has done some really neat Mechaton-scale stuff, too... though I don't see it on his Flickr page there.

I was trying to start from scratch using 1 4917(Robot) and 1 4916(Animal) micro sets.  It doesn't give you enough of the key joints in those sets. Actually, the animal set is better than the Robot set for the key joints.

The best bet is to do the brick-linking. I haven't had the time to check it out though.

I purchased 2 each of 4915, 4916, 4917, and 4918 as well as 2 extra 4916.  The price tag on these sets is affordable and it gives me a nice base to experiment from... but I had the same problem rokendo mentions.  There aren't enough key pieces.

What are key pieces?  Joints.  I don't mean a specific piece, although I can think of a few.  The hardest part to build for these very small mechs is shoulder, elbow, hip, and knee.  These have direction changes (and if you are lucky, range of motion) that are challenging for LEGO bricks.

A listing of key joint pieces would be very helpful.  In fact, after a fair amount of research, all LEGO bricks for Mechaton break down into two categories - frame and dressing.  Joints are the essential component of the frame.

For example, the shoulder and hip assemblies of these and these are crucial parts for pleasing designs.  What are these parts?  Building a fleet of Mechaton war machines is going to depend on getting large numbers of these specific parts.

Those shoulders and hips are made of pneumatic T-pieces, bricks with studs on the sides, and clips of various sorts. Here are some Bricklink listings:
Light Bluish Gray Pneumatic T Piece
Light Bluish Gray Brick, Modified 1 x 1 with Headlight
Light Bluish Gray Brick, Modified 1 x 1 with Studs on 4 Sides
Light Bluish Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Vertical
Light Bluish Gray Plate, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip Horizontal
Light Bluish Gray Tile, Modified 1 x 1 with Clip

Last time I checked, it was much, much cheaper to by the pneumatic T-pieces from Lego Factory than it was from Bricklink.

Thank you for the help.

I don't seem to have any luck when clicking these links.  It does not take me to the part in question.  It takes me to a generic page searching parts in that color... of which there are millions.  There were 8 pages of one kind of bracket alone.

I need a catalog of pictures of parts ignoring color and ignoring supplier.  I just need to see shapes.  Any idea how to do that?

...Oops. Somehow, yep, those links aren't working.

Rrg.

J, what's the name of the website with the part catalog?

I was too hasty in posting.  I managed to find a nice way to use Bricklink by (of all things) reading the help.  RTFM?  Go figure.  :)

Peeron!

http://www.peeron.com/

So fucking useful.

Ever consider having other stores besides The Forge RPG Bookshelf sell PDF's? I was looking to get a PDF of Mechaton, and Fred Hicks over at Indie Press Revolution said that the typical reason they don't have PDFs of a book for sale is because the publisher hasn't provided them with one, and that I should drop you a line, so I am.

Oh, and if you're curious as to why I won't buy it off The Forge RPG Bookshelf:
- They send passwords around in plain text (no https, etc)
- I don't want to have to wait to be authorized to get my PDF. I want an immediate download.

So, it just doesn't work for me, and something like IPR works a lot better.

Thanks!

(Oh, and this goes for other games besides just Mechaton, Dogs in the Vineyard, for example.)

Hyrum and I played a game this evening and there're three rules we'd like addressed.
We're both thinking that spotting should require a spotting attachment (like direct fire shooting takes a gut attachment).
We're also thinking that stationary bases should not provide cover.
And we both think that having hand-to-hand combad do damage on a 4-6, rather than a 5-6, makes it more effective as a game machanic.

Here's a quick question.  I've recently completed a trio of mechs that I like quite a lot, but they seem to be just a wee bit bigger than the example mechs in the book.  Not a lot bigger, but enough that I figured I'd ask if minor differences in scale affect the gameplay in any fashion.  It wouldn't affect cover, would it, because all that matters there is that something bigger than a single brick is between you and the attacker, yes?

Hey, Traifan (Glen?):

1: I agree about spotting attachments, really. Spotting is very powerful. Also, for some reason, no one ever remembers that you can do it if you don't have one.

2: Why shouldn't objectives provide cover? This may not be a bad point, as it gives defenders cover, no matter where the objective is. Is this your reasoning?

3: I agree about HtH damage in certain settings. Sometimes, you want it, sometimes you don't. There are limited circumstances in which you want HtH weaponry: specifically, when you're fighting over an objective so when one guy falls, it immediately goes into the hands of the attacker. Usually, though, it's a bit of a hinderance. Making it more powerful might make it work out better. I believe V and I have discussed this very rule, in fact.

Yeah, this is Glen.  I guess my real question about objectives is, if they're providing cover, do they get damaged?

If you can destroy objectives, it makes the game into "destroy the other guys' objectives". That might be interesting, but it would take some real playtesting, methinks. Do you still count the pieces? Does that mean that there's strategy to how many pieces your objectives are made of? What about the shape?

The rules are about getting your guys out into the action. If you can affect the point spread by shooting stationary targets, it disinclines that, I think.

Just played for the first time two days ago. It's an awesome game, but I have a bunch of rules questions.

1. I'm confused about perimeter. How do you determine it and what purpose does it serve in the game? Can artillery attachments start the fight before the perimeter is breached?

2. Are artillery attacks still affected by the defender's cover? The book's mention of long range weapons as "artillery" implied to me an up-and-over kind of thing.

4. Can a mech with multiple gun attachments choose more than 1 target in a turn, assuming there were appropriate targets in range of each? I assume no, but if 2 same-range guns can combine to d8 why can't 2 different range guns fire simultaneously as well?

5. Do you always have to declare a target before you roll? What if no target is within range, but you're sure one will be after the roll?

That's all I got for now. Thanks for an awesome game!

-Jarvis

Let's see.

1. The perimeter only exists during setup, and its only purpose is to keep everybody from starting right on top of the defender. As soon as you roll initiative for the first turn, you can forget about the perimeter altogether.

2. Cover does affect artillery fire.

4. A mech gets only one attack per turn.

5. You do have to declare your target before you roll, but you can declare an out-of-range target if you want to. If by some disaster you don't get in range before you attack, it only means you don't get to attack, there's no penalty or anything.

My pleasure!

Any thoughts on using inches instead of hexes or the Lego-measure? Does 1 hex equal 1 inch?

It doesn't matter. Make up a measurement and stick to it. Make an inch a unit if you want and use a tape measure. Or make a foot your unit and make foot-tall mecha and play over a parking lot!

Hey, creators of Mechaton, I love your game.
I picked up a copy in one of my favorite game stores before I left the area (and they went out of business).
One of the best purchases of my gaming...er, career? (Hell, at least you get paid for your shenanigans).

Anyways, wondering if it would be at all possible, for...an image or PDF of the blank mecha data sheets? Something a little more printable and possibly editable on the computer?

Thanks, keep up the good work.

You can download pdf mech sheets at boardgame geek.
I lack skills to include a link, sorry.

It's been a long while since I posted here, but I have a question.

Can I get the rules for free?

My resources are a tad slim at the moment, as I'm attempting to get into WH40K, my laptop cord disappeared during a bike ride, and my PS2 just broke. Right there, that's about 500 bux, roughly, of stuff I have to pay for.

I have a TON of legos however, about three or four 15-20 gallon cases worth. Obviously it would be cheaper for me to play Mekaton, but I lack, as you say, people to play with. I would likely have a grand total of five, with four being maybes-heck, if you count the fact that the one "for sure" is someone I see maybe seven times a year, that makes the people I can play with nearly null.

If the stuff for WarHammer 40K weren't so cool, I'd just get the Core Rules and proxy my units with Lego figs, but WYSIWYG is very prevalent in WH right now, and that makes things a little hard.

If you'd like, I have an entire new faction I came up with, complete with subfactions and a somewhat fuzzy backstory...COSSACK, Coalition of Sentient Species And Cultural Klatch.

Email me, I'll hook you up.

The Mech sheet from board game geek, mentioned by Rusty above: Mech sheet (pdf).  Thanks for mentioning it Rusty—it looks awfully handy to me.

Mechaton will be played at LinCon this year, and hopefully it will be twice as awesome as last year. More mechas, bigger mechas and at least four different kinds of matches will be available. The rules used will be tweaked slightly to allow scaling and this year I'll translate them as well for the younger audience. The goal is to get at least twice as many people to play as last year.

Vincent, how far away is the next Mechaton edition? I haven??t decided yet if I'm going to sell the book there or just hand out small business cards with https:// for Mechaton. I'd like to do both, but if there is a new edition coming this year I'd feel bad about selling the older, soon to be obsolete, one. Also Mechatons page on anyway kinda sucks. It isn't selling the game in the same way the DitVs page does. We need to get the world more Mechaton Vincent!

Thanks, Vincent-one problem...

What's your email?

And can I call you Vince?

Oh! lumpley at gmail dot com. Vince is fine, although nobody really calls me it.

I just want to second a "Mechaton Rebuilt" edition, with on-going/scenario play, salvage and upgrade rules, more chassis (not 100% sure this is needed, tho), and more weapon types (AOE and rooting, for instance)!

Go for saddle stitch or perfect bound, too—there's little reason to lay flat, in actual play; and spiral bound just doesn't play well in backpacks or stacked with other books (never mind on-shelf appearance).

Just some words of support!
David

Hey, Vincent!  Looking forward to purchasing yet another of your quality games.  I echo David's statement:  any idea when a new edition of Mechaton, complete with your proposed campaign rules (especially excited about rules for named pilots), will be in the works?  I probably can't wait that long, so I'll have to buy Mechaton 1st to tide me over, but the prospect of additional rules crafted by the creator of Dogs has me slavering.

YOU HEAR THAT VINCENT

Am I going to have to punch your other eye?

Well so here's the deal.

New edition: sure, sure. Coming soon. If I tell you a date I'll just blow by it without pause anyway, so I'm not going to tell a date.

Campaign rules: well, the campaign rules work, but they make each new battle more high-stakes than the one before, so that in the second half of the campaign you get stomach aches from playing, and if you oh I dunno GET A BOYFRIEND or something else that's more fun than a stomach ache, you stop playing the campaign. So they'll be in the new book, but appropriately caveatted.

However, named pilot rules? I currently have no idea what I'm going to do for those. Maybe we can start a new campaign and try some out, and maybe they'll make for a campaign that's not stomach ache inducing, we can always hope.

New chassis, not gonna happen. New weapon types, we'll see. I know how I'd do area effect weapons, but I'm not at all convinced the game needs them.

David, what's rooting?

...Okay, I took my notebook with me into the can and I have a first draft of named pilot rules. J, I'll contact you through the usual channels, let's play.

Oh, the hurt.

It will be brought.

It's great to hear the work is proceeding apace on more Mechaton stuff.  I've been on a mech-building tear since I stumbled across some of the builders at the Lego Mecha Hub, and I'm about to put in an order at Bricklink and start putting some teams together so I can go spread the love.

Here's a question, possibly something to be addressed in the new edition or right here in this thread; if people are playing with mechs that aren't exactly in scale with each other, does that cause any problems?  If mine are about ten studs tall against my opponent's six stud tall units, does that cause any grief or is it all good?

Was the campaign actually causing people to get stomach aches?  That's too bad.  Could you go into any more detail on what was happening there (about the campaign's rapid increase in stakes, not the stomach aches)?

"Rooting" is a common MMORPG term for effects which hinder or prevent movement. For Mecha, that could be a net, some kind of goo gun, effector technology, or whatever would prevent movement by the target for N turns (or until some action is taken, like cutting free).

Fine on the "no new chassis." I kind of was on the fence about that myself: on the one hand, attachment points provide alternative "leg" configurations; on the other hand, there's something to be said for "light" mecha (two APs) and "heavy" mecha (six APs) and their associated limitations (or, just a new rule that a team's APs must add up to N). Little, piddly stuff like that could even just be Optional Rules, not vanilla RAW.

"Named pilots" is news to me—do they somehow convey a bonus or plus, to certain actions or situations, from "Traits"? Could work fine; could become a min-max game breaker.

I, too, would be curious to know what is the stomach achiness of campaign play. I imagined it mainly as "loot battlefield for 'credits,' spend credits to get non-standard powers/attachments, repeat." Yes, this could cause a sort of arms race... but so does any game with advancement, when you get down to it. I didn't even really see "story" aspects to such campaign play—more like an interesting way to, say, run a tournament, with escalating power levels and maybe even team sizes, to really make a "Big Event" of a final. In the end, though, the rules might be so light as to not easily handle scaling (ex: after a few buff ups, every mecha is rolling d8s for every action, making everything effectively "the same" challenge level as a starting game, but inflated numerically).

Hell, at the least, compile all the cool rule variants others have come up with, to offer "advanced" rules or variations. Sure, we can easily do such a compilation ourselves... but it looks like folks like to pay you to use your judgment and to have a fine artifact (a rule book) in their grubby hands. :)

Oh dude, you haven't seen the campaign rules? They're WAY more interesting than that.

Let's see...
Mechaton Campaign Posts

Anyhow, since the game self-balances bigger and better-equipped armies against smaller and worse-equipped ones, rules like "congratulations, you won, now you get a BIGGER ARMY!" aren't interesting. One of the real innovations and strengths of the game is that you can build any army you want (within a broad range) without worrying about how your army and mine will balance against each other.

Having a bigger army means changing your tactics to win, it's not any kind of an advantage.

My favorite version of the "mechaton campaign RPG mode"

You give all your pilots names and backstories. Keep track of who is piloting what mech.

The actual rules are unchanged. You're just more sad when your mech dies.

Dave: If by "chassis type" you're just talking about "heavy chassis" vs. "light chassis" the game already has that. Light chassis are more maneuverable (not faster in travel time, just in reaction time) and heavy chassis hold more attachments. There are five different chassis types.

Skeletal Chassis gets 5 initiative dice, no attachments.
Ultralight Chassis gets 4 initiative dice, one attachment.
Light Chassis gets 3 initiative dice, 2 attachments.
Normal Chassis gets 2 initiative dice, 3 attachments.
Heavy Chassis gets 1 initiative die, 4 attachments.

yrs—
—Ben

outed!

DOH... right... haven't read the rules recently. *blush*

Hey, guys! Got a simple question for y'all, since I don't have a copy of up-to-date rules - I'm operating purely off the construction rules on a roster sheet and would appreciate some clarification.

One Direct weapon gives 2d6 at medium range, and a second one gives an additional 1d8. Two weapons with split range, or two single-range weapons (say, Direct/Artillery) give 2d6 at both ranges, right? So, will a third Direct/Artillery mixed weapon give a D8 at both those ranges, or will I need a dedicated weapon to get a D8 on just one of those ranges?

I'm asking because I need to find some rules context for an infantry squad I'm putting together in LEGO Digital Designer. If anybody wants, I could post some pictures!

Once again, thanks!

You'll need a dedicated weapon per d8.

This isn't in the rules, but if you really really really need to split-range that third weapon, it should give an additional d6 at each range. So with three weapons you can have 3d6 at direct and 3d6 at artillery.

That's balanced, the math works out. However, since it's not by the book, if anybody you're playing with doesn't like it, don't do it.

Hey, want some tactical advice to go with the rules answer? Overloading a range - that's what taking a second weapon at the same range is called - is a serious investment. Since a mech gets only one attack at a time, overloading two ranges is a pretty sure losing investment. Every turn, half of your attachments will be sitting idle.

Tactically, the game's won by making smart commitments and following through on them effectively. Overloading two ranges bespeaks a) hoping you won't have to make a commitment, then b) when you do make one, following through on it only half-effectively.

Doubly overloaded mechs look cool, all guns all the time, but I LOVE to fight them. They make my life lots easier.

Oh and of COURSE I want you to post some pictures!

Thanks, Vincent! As promised, eye candy~!

Desert Infantry. Equipped with long rifles and bazookas. Meant to hold rear stations and hit opponents from medium and long range.

Urban Infantry. Equipped with SMGs, bazooka and command element. Basic mid-range combat unit trained to fight in streets and inside buildings.

Forest Infantry. Equipped with vibro-axes, SMGs and command element. Close-range unit best suited to taking and holding forward objectives.

Want it all? This here's an army set that includes four units each of Desert, Urban and Forest Infantry, six Trucks with two trailers (one each of Radar and Artillery), and nine little stations.

And the set I needed some advice on, Anti-Armor Powersuits. Equipped with autocannons/mortars/grenade launchers, sniper rifle and command element (probably will trade for Active Stealth Generator). I know the sniper will be a Direct/Artillery weapon, but I was wondering what the best thing would be for the other two big guns.

Well, let me know what you think!

Whoops, looks like I done messed up my Army link. Let's try that again.

Ha! Those are GREAT. The urban infantry and the anti-armor powersuits rock my world.

Once again, thanks! Seems I forgot one of my pictures, too!

Light Trucks with Trailers. Equipped with a machine gun; can also take a trailer with radar or artillery.

Slick, dude... nice way to drift the basic notion of the game from mecha to fighting units. Vincent... steal this idea for the revised edition! (At least mention/show such play options in passing.)

Just so I don't keep spamming the comments, I'll just link to my current Mechaton Gallery - now featuring Arctic Infantry, Stealth Infantry and Assault Powersuits!

Ianator, those are really great.

Oh, wow. Last night I came up with like the best idea ever.

Spaceships!

Hey, you should use vector movement rules with those!

OK, I checked some stuff...
@Holy Ghost - I don't see any reference to those alternate chassis—the word "Chassis" doesn't appear in the PDF rules that I have. I reckon you're speaking to the rule that adds initiative dice for each attachment (out of a max of 4) that a mecha doesn't have. Cool, I get it... but I think the Rebuilt Edition should have a little chart elucidating that, or something.

@Vincent - In fact, I think the new edition should contain charts for all of the numerics—attachment dice size and color, singly or dual-wield; SS rockets die and color; and movement and initiative dice—maybe on a quick reference sheet or a photocopy-able mecha design sheet (maybe I should just go and make such a beast myself and quit my bitchin').

Hmmm... for that matter... Vincent, I'd happily help with layout and/or proofreading, if it helps to accelerate the release! Refer to Perfect (v1) for my latest game-related layout (admittedly spare, per designer request) and to Passages, for my most-recent game editing work. Or ping Joe McDonald and Justin Jacobson, the latter in particular—I got in the loop fairly early and was able to help iron out some rough spots and confusing bits in both the system and the text.

@Joshua - "Vector" is another word that my PDF lacks.Do you mean continuous movement in the current direction, at the movement die speed, until opposed (braking) or redirected with another movement die? COOL optional rule....

@Vincent - OK, that's another thing I'd add to the Rebuilt Edition: alternate combat mediums. We got ground (and limited atmosphere) in the basic rules; the above notion gets us simple vacuum maneuvering rules; all that's left is atmosphere (vector movement plus some kind of "curve-to-turn" rule about handling and agility, maybe based off initiative dice count?) and liquid (atmosphere move/turn rules plus movement penalties based on the inverse of the initiative dice count?). Obviously, there'd either be no 3D movement, for simplicity, or a VERY pseudo-3D, using elevation shafts.

Man... I got a fever... and the only cure is more rule tweaks! :)

I'd love to figure out some way to make cars and planes that did swooping maneuvers. Vector maneuvering is the first part of that, of course.

I'm working on a giant, huge thing that uses *wind guage*. But that's a much different game in most ways.

More spaceships!

I think that's enough spaceships for now. Any ideas on what I should do next? (BTW, for some reason LDD has certain awesome parts that I can't buy, which is why I haven't posted any robots yet.)

@Ianator: How about Mechaton-scale aircraft, fighter-jets and gunships and the like?

Actually, I was going to make some little jetplane squads, but I think none of the 1x1 bricks with studs on the sides didn't want to work like I wanted them to. Maybe I should just think a tad bigger...?

Now I really have to get Gun Fleet, my microspace mechaton hack, ready before more people realize how awesome such a game would be. I said it would be ready for the first time last october and since then I??ve just playtested once.

On another note I totally failed to write a report about Mechaton at LinCon but the pictures were real sweet.

@Iantor: Yeah, think a bit bigger for aircraft.  I'm not sure there's a fixed "scale" in place here, but I don't think aircraft equal in size to a mech would look out of place.

I've fixed Uriel's links.

Holy cow that's a lot of mechs!

I have a couple of questions:

1. I bought Mechaton back in June/July last year. Has there been an update, and if so how would I get it?

2. I'll be demoing Mechaton at the Penny Arcade Expo again (did it last year too). Can you send me some cards to hand out to interested parties, so they can find the game more easily after the con? You said you would last year, but they never materialized. I'll design and print my own if I have to, but you're welcome to send designs or physical cards if you have something you'd prefer.

I emailed you a couple weeks ago about this stuff, but got no response. Figured I'd post here since this seems to have stopped being a rules thread already. You can reach me at hotsake@gmail.org, replacing org with com.

I'll get around to the planes later. For now, tanks! Let there be tanks! And a new armored army!

Hey Tom, I'm in the crunch for GenCon so I don't think I'm going to be much help. That's what happened last year too! I had good intentions.

There hasn't been any update for a couple of years. I'm sure you have the most current version.

Thanks for the reply. I'll just whip up a flyer or something to give to interested parties (there were quite a few last year). Thanks again for making such a fun game that anyone can pick up and play!

I'm going to bring Mechaton to N??rCon this weekend, just the smaller mechas and not so many, and I thought I'd try some pilot rules.
Pilot are rated 0-3,so a normal mechas will have a lvl 0 rookie. Each lvl gives one reroll per turn on any dice. A pilot gets better by destroying as many mechas as the next lvl, so about mid game there probably be some lvl 1 pilots.
And of course you can eject your pilot!

I'll let you now how it works out.

Ooo... Pilot rules would be sweet, in Mechaton Rebuilt! I'd take it even further, with "specializations". For each level you gain, you pick a specialization. What they grant is the ability to re-roll the re-roll, if it is less than 3 and it relates to the spec.

For example, if one of my pilots is lvl 1, spec in Artillery, then I may re-roll any die once per turn, AND if it's an Artillery/long-range attack roll, I may re-re-roll it if it comes out less than 3. Any other roll may merely be re-rolled, and I suffer the result no matter what.

Ooo!! And you could add a "mastery" effect at, say, lvl 3 which allows you to keep the higher (lower, better, whatever) of the two rolls during a re-roll. At lvl 6, you become "supreme" and may re-roll three times, keeping the highest (note that each roll would be discrete, only taken if necessary/desired).

Cool idea, again!

Good ideas David! I've been thinking about something similar, but I couldn't get a clear benefit vs. cost correspondence. But I will steal your idea about keeping the highest when re-rolling.

So how much move/defense should a pilot on the ground have?

Crazy idea: What if a pilot ejects/paradrops onto another mecha? Could the pilot perhaps roll some dice and hijack that mecha, and eject the previous pilot? How cool wouldn't that be?

How the new rules worked out.

Move speed for human - just factor off the mecha (i.e. "scale" the current movement).

Defense - I'd say fairly high, ranged, and almost none, melee or explosive (squish).

Mecha-jacking - Sounds totally implausible to me. Sure, a human should have SOME reason to eject and run around the field (I'd say, to survive and maintain levels is enough); but saying that a mecha can be hijacked from the outside just seems like REALLY bad mecha design, to me. Criminally bad (and, as such, the users of said mecha have already been selected against and destroyed, long ago).
——-
Vincent... whassup? Look at all this love and cool new system tweaks! Look at these ravening fans! Look at this volunteer to help edit/layout/illustrate! Let's get Mechaton back on the radar, now that the GenCon surge is waning....

David! For now, the most absolute awesomely most helpful thing you can do for me, as a fan of the game, is to play the crap out of it. Put pictures and game writeups online, like Uriel does.

Creating a wish list for "Mechaton Rebuilt," especially a wish list of rule tweaks ... not so much.

Hey guys! It's been a while, but I've got a few new things to show you guys.

First are some Infantry Artillery Teams, a little squad carrying a big gun. Made it while thinking about Heavy Weapons Teams in Warhammer 40,000. I've also mande some Helicopters - the Gunships should fit in fairly easily, but the Transporters could do with some house rules.

Now, those are nice and all, but I've also come up with a really neat utility that could possibly replace pen-and-paper stat sheets. Behold...

Stat Counters! Just set the little colored dots in place and stick the rest on the bottom - it measures everything but Initiative!

As always, lemme know what you think!

OK, Vincent. I hear ya....
—-
Can you explain the stat counter thingie? I'm a bit lost....

Sure. Though I may be a little off on how it's supposed to be, seeing as I don't actually have a set of the rules yet... (I will soon, though!)

Each dot on the counter represents one die of the appropriate color; note the three sets of Red Dice for each of the three ranges. If your mech's equipped with those single-shot missiles, just put one dot for each one onto that one empty stud. When part of your mech gets blown up (or you use a missile), simply remove the corresponding dot and put it on the bottom so it doesn't get lost.

For demos at GenCon I incorporated appropriately-colored transparent dots right into the attachments. It played as slick as can be.

Yeah, if you actually can't remember, incorporating a colored dot is waaaay better than character sheets of any sort, even Lego ones.

I see a lot of ideas here, but it'll be immediately apparent if they're fun or not if you:

a) Play regular ol' Mechaton so you understand it
b) Play your new rules, adding one or two at a time
c) See if it's more fun that way. Note how long it takes to play with the new rules and if you find that they give you new strategic and tactical options, or if they add complexity to decisionmaking without adding new rewards.

Remember: new rules should add new ways to win; new strategic and tactical options without obsolescing old ones.

Oh well. I guess it wouldn't be too practical to keep track of infantry with a counter almost as big as the unit itself... It's the curse of creativity!

Meh. Back to the drawing board and my next masterpiece! Maybe I should try an actual mech this time?

It doesn't matter what you play with. Mecha, helicopters, infantry, camel cavalry, elephants... just play it! Let us know how it went! We used to play with record sheets, then realized that we didn't need them at all cuz we played it that way, then realized that it was more fun without.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Make some pudding! Don't just describe recipes!

I'd love to, if I had anyone to play with. I only get to visit my "local" game store like twice a month, and I don't have much in the way of units right now (though that may soon change for the much-better).

Hmm... maybe I should learn how to make a module for VASSAL so we can play online! It won't be quite the same as real life, but it'll be a start. Wasn't someone going to PAX '08?

Hey there. I'm planning a small Mechaton game out in the Flea market/Demo Games area at Strategicon's Gateway convention this coming weekend. If you are attending, drop by an say hello. Only have a couple Ptimanya 5Gens, but I'm sure it'll be fun. :) ANYHOW, take care, everyone, and keep on building!

I agree wholeheartedly with Joshua's point of how to figure out new fun rules for Mechaton. About half the rules I've tested just added complexity without adding fun. The changes I kept increased my personal fun, but I know my fun is not the same as your fun. So I understand that Vincent doesn't want us to pester him with rule tweaks.

I was wondering...anyone here build one of the four-legged walkers from the main rules? I'm curious about armaments and what-not, I need more modelling ideas. Any helpers out there?

@ Sam The Mecha Man;  I've built one, they seem a little flimsy to me.

Oh? How are they fragile? I'm awaiting the first of 'em over here. <:) I tried to build some of my own...but the hinges. Alas, the hinges. I picked an artillery version, cause I know the robot arms are fragile parts.

As well, I saw the battle report elsewhere, and the pictures...I was wondering. Are there any decent pics of the combat space tugs? Those looked really interesting and I'd love to see one. :) ANd make one. Or three.

Hi to all from Italy (so, pls, forgive my poor english).

I bought the rules about a week ago, and readed them 3 or 4 times.

I don't get some points, so i'm asking to you all.

1) 9-Long Ruler. 9 what? Inches? And how long are the axis used to build it? So all that joint are for what purpose?

2) Movement: Page 10 says "WHEN YOU MOVE Move a number of hexes equal to your move die, or less." ... Hexes? are not we playing with "inches" (or whatever that "9" means)? So, how much i move per die point?

3) how much hours are needed to play a 3 player game as described at the beginning of the rules?

Thanks in advance.

PS
Oh, you can look at my very first Lego mechs (i'm 38, and i do not use my Legos from '83, more or less) at Moc Pages

Sorry, i have another couple of questions:
4) If i have right understood, the Artillery Range starts when the Direct Fire Range ends. Am i right?
5) Do the Direct Fire Range overlap the Hand-To-Hand Range, or it follows the same concept of the Artillery Range (so, in short words: can i shoot at an enemy in Hand-To-Hand Range)?

Hi Parduz.

1-2. The ruler's 9 units long. Your movement die lets you move that many units. I called them "hexes" for no good reason, a relic of a relic.

Suit the actual size of each unit to your table, but it's not picky. Try a unit of 5cm - that's what I use.

3. 2-4 hours. 4 hours for beginning players. 2 hours once you've internalized the rules.

4. You're right.

5. You CAN'T shoot enemies in H-t-H. It follows the same concept.

Thanks, Vincent.

A niggle, two suggestion and an offer.

I've often found that one good method to learn game rules is to translate them in my language (this is doable only for short rulebooks, obviously). The process to read the same things multiple times and write them down in my language does not allow me to "fast read" the pages, missing somewhat.

So, writing down the MECHATON rules, i've found that they are not really straightforward. You've done a lot of assumptions about the gaming knowledge of your readers (the d6/d8 terms are without explanation, as example) the biggest of them is the "objective of the game", which you discover reading somewhat else (the "What???s my army worth?" chapter example).
So, if you plan a revision of the rulebook, can i suggest to write it in a more "straightforward" way?
My other suggestion is about Initiative Order vs Combat Order. I strongly think that the right words and names helps a lot to understand a game mechanic. Tell the same rule in two very different manners (both correct) and you'll see that one is worst that another.
I write my own italian manual calling the "3. On a mech???s go:" chapter "The Mech Activation", and splitting it in two phases: the Order Phase (from a) to f) in your rules) and the Action Phase ( from g) to the end).
So, if a Mech is attacking a non-activated target, the target just have to execute the Order Phase before resolving the Attack. This does not change a bit in the game mechanic, but i think is much more easy to explain.

(This all is just to be propositive. I'm not blaming you in any way or complaining for anything.)

The offer: are you interested in my Italian rules? i can send to you the finished version, so you can give it to other italian buyers. It's a shame to do all that work for me only :)

Some more Rules questions, sorry.
1) What about using Stations as Cover? are they taking damage?
2) Can i target a piece of the Field to blow it up? If yes, how my attack works?
3) Are you really playing how stated in the FAQ, ignoring LOS so if a Mech is behind a building (somewhat really higher and larger than our Mechs) i can still use Direct Fire attacks against him?

Ehi, Parduz, posso aiutarti se l'hai bisogno.

1: Lo puoi. Infatti, lo faccio tutto il tempo. Lascio un rag?? dietro la stazione con un cannone d'artigleria, due bl??, e una spada o pistola ?????qualcosa per mano a mano.

2: S??! Ha un numero di defendere di zero. 4 ?? 6 distruggiere 3 pezzi. Noti che se ?? un arbero o qualcosa d'un pezzo solo, (o tr?? pezzi, infatti), distruggerla immediatamente.

3: S??, cos??. Gli edificie hanno bucche, porte, fenestre, e tutti gli mecha corrono dappertutto durante la battaglia.

Lasciar?? Vincent parlarti del' libro. S?? capisco tua domanda degli "phases", infatti, lo far?? molto pi?? complicato.

(Scusate mio italiano. Non ho molti opportunit?? praticarlo, e in particolare, mi dimentico spesso gli accenti)

Dannazione. Gli accenti sono comunque rotto.

Hey, Joshua, your italian is pretty good. Too bad that the php functions that take cares of the submitted post screws up all the apostrophes and other charachters. I don't understand why in other posts they're present.... it may depends on my keyb layout or my OS language? Dunno.

Back to the game: thanks for your answers. But:
1) So you use Stations as Cover: what about damaging them?
2) Ok, i can target a piece of terrain and do damage with 4 to 6. This is your house rule, or it is stated "officially" somewhere? i can't find it in the rulebook.

1: Nope. You can't destroy them. It does great violence to the system if you can. Targets for "destruction" can be simulated by, for instance, someone having to have possession of the "bridge" point where, after the battle is done, the bomb will go off if Brown team possesses it, or it will be prevented from going off if the Red or Orange team has it.

2: I don't think it's in the book, but I think it's discussed somewhere on this blog. Maybe not? I dunno. Vincent will clarify, I'm sure. Also, there's a quirk: if you target a wall behind a mecha, technically, the mecha is cover for the wall and you should hit the mecha on a 5. That rule doesn't make sense there.

Oh, and the thing about the characters and such: regular, vertical apostrophes (') work fine. Euro keyboards have a harder time on V's blog here. Fortunately, it has very little impact on communication.

cough....
sorry to bore you all again, but this night i've done another match and i have new rules questions.
Seriously, sorry if these seems stupid, it may be the foreign language.... or maybe i'm just dumb.
1) When i have to choose a target, can i choose a Mech which is not in the range of the attack (so, i hope on movement to reach it)? Or i need to target a Mech which already is in the range?
2) I shoot a Mech under cover, and i roll 2 "5". The cover have only 3 bricks left, so after the first "5" there's no more cover, but only single bricks. Do the 2nd "5" hit the Mech or it is wasted 'cause there WAS a cover?

1) Yes, you can target the mech outside of range. If you don't make it into range before your attack, somehow, you just don't get your attack.

2) The second 5 hits the mech.

Thanks Vincent.

Meanwhile I've found a very tiny glitch on the rulebook.
Page 9, chapter "3. On a mech???s go:"
The step "a" ("Discard your initiative die. You won???t need it again.") should be moved just before the step "g" ("Third, you choose whether to move first...") 'cause when a mechs rolls for being a target it still needs to keep track of his initiative.

No it doesn't. When a mech is targeted, it goes at that very moment. It rolls its dice, gets a defense number, takes damage if necessary, and then uses the rest of the dice as appropriate.

Holy Cow!
NOW i understand.
I've just played wrong all my matches, making the target waiting for his initiative die. Instead, a targetted Mech moves immediatly after the attacker. This can screw up any initiative order, but really leads to different tactical decisions.
Argh!
Thanks.

It surely does! Sometimes your "tactical decisions" are more like "total freakouts" and you lose because you picked the wrong fight.

... where "you" really means "me".

If you've got the time I need some feedback on the new Enhancement rules. Thanks.

First glance response:

1. Despite the impression I may have given above, talking with David, I fully endorse and am way excited by mods, house rules and tweaks. Follow your inspiration!

(I may be a cranky old stickler and wet blanket about the rules I publish myself, but not about the rules anybody else publishes. Go crazy, I'm behind you 100%.)

2. Some of those effects are super cool.

A hard line I've always drawn is: no improving defense. I still feel that way. (That's why there's no defensive equivalent to spotting.)

I've always wanted a way for you to involuntarily move an enemy mech. Let me know how that one works.

I like the sat link with my whole brain.

Yeah, I agree that a boost of +1 to defense might be overpowered. I'll try it out, and if it seems to be, I'll try a +1 to defense for one attack only instead.

One thing I'd like the Enhancement rules to do is to work as an addon not only to Mechaton: Hijackeds point system, but also to "classic" Mechatons victory points per system.

Doable? Assuming an attachment is equal to an enhancement in either system (which I'm not convinced of yet) then maybe by replacing most/fewest attachments with most/fewest attachments plus enhancements?

Can you have more than one spotting die on a single mech at a time?

I always assumed the answer was "no," and that a new spot clears the old spot.

yrs—
—Ben

Crazy and not finished rules for adding reinforcements and other stuff.

Ben, no. If your new spot die is higher, replace the old spot die. If you have a 5 or 6 already on that guy, stick the spot on someone else. And why aren't you shooting him, with that 5 or 6? What, are you chicken? Afraid he'll shoot back?

Chicken!

Joshua: I'm spotting my own guy, and replacing his 4 with a 1.

yrs—
—Ben

Based on a game for 4 people with between 2-8 mechs each, about how many dice of each kind and each color would be a good starting point to pick up?  Sorry if this is a repeat question I didn't see it addressed anywhere I looked.  If it's answered in the rule book I apologize, my 2 yr. old recently ripped apart my printer so I haven't had occasion to purchase and print the pdf yet.

Not at all!

When we play, we have at hand, in sum, for the table:
around 6 white dice;
around 6 red dice;
around 6 green dice;
a brick of 36 little yellow dice;
a brick of 36 little blue dice;
a green d8 or two;
a red d8 or two; and
the initiative dice we need (generally 1-2 d20 per mech).

Ben, that's an interesting question. It's never occurred to me. Vincent?

The high spot die always stands. a) I'm opposed to defensive options, as a general rule. b) I'm strictly opposed to options where you hope for a low die result, as a fundamental principle underlying this game's entire design.

So to implement a defensive use of spotting, you'd have to roll high then subtract from the standing spot die ... and then overcome (a).

a) is meaningful. I support a). Neglect of a) will reduce tension, and stomach aches are one of the great perks of Mechaton.

About how long does it take to receive the pdf after it's been purchased?  I only ask because I have limited access to a printer and was hoping to get it down on paper today so I could give it a run through tonight.

Depends on how busy my day is! If you're who I think you are, I just sent download info to you, you should have it now.

I am who you think I am.  I just got it, thanks a lot. Looks awesome, can't wait to play.  In fact I've been building mechs and structures for the past few days so I could start right away.  Thanks for creating this game and rekindling my love of building with legos.  It's something I'm trying to pass on to my kids now that they're getting big enough to play with them and not just see them as a snack.

Nice! My pleasure, and thanks for saying so.

I don't get why a Mecha can't have more than one spot die. If it is "tracked" by more than one enemy, why it should not have multiple spot dice?
Buy ECM next time :P

Just for simplicity's sake. How many dice do you WANT out there on the table?

Parduz, we played that way for a while. It just made it more complicated. You had to decide which Yellow to use, for one thing, plus it meant that the piles of dice were even bigger and got confused between each other even more.

Check this out: I'm planning on playing some Mechaton using these guys with my cousin. We used to play Battletech with made-up rules and the little tiny model kits. These are bigger but much cooler and they pop apart and go back together with ease. You can swap stuff out of their hands, swap limbs (particularly if you're using the highly modular Zaku models), and they look really good.

Man, I would love to play me some SD Gundam Mechaton.

Well, during my match no mecha has got more than 2 yellow dice... we have 10-12 mechs at maximum, maybe i'm playing with a smaller set than you all :)

Nice thing, that Gundam battle. I have some gummy Gundam-related miniatures, about 6-7cm tall which i've found somewhere at a tiny market. But they are no popping: i will break the gummy pins shortly (lot of friction)

Hey Vincent,

Can you tell me a little about the green d8?  I understand the how but not the why of it.  Why does a mech that has no direct fire or artillery need or deserve above and beyond movement?

Mark and I played our first game last night and that one little rule kept rubbing me the wrong way.  I'm inclined to hack at it, but I'd like to understand the reason for it a little better before I do.

I had some problems too with this one so since this summer I've used the rule that any mech which isn't shooting, i.e. making any distance attack, gets +2 on the move but still has to assign a white or green die. Works fine I think and makes more sense. Plus some times you might opt not to shoot just to be able to push the pedal to the metal.

That's almost idential to my solution, Uriel.  I called it 'charging', made it a +1 move bump, and didn't require that you assign a die to it.  But essentially it's the same idea:  Give HTH a boost that has a solid reflection in the fiction.

I think that's a fine house rule. I imagine it'll have exactly the effect you want. Play with it with my blessing.

(The green d8 also has a solid reflection in the fiction, it's just genre emulation.)

It does?  What is that reflection?  Maybe if I can tie the rule to some fiction I'll enjoy it more.

I doubt it! It makes you roll your eyes when you see it in the source material too. "Oh come ON. Why does he wait to push the turbo button until NOW? Why didn't he use the turbo button to avoid this situation in the first place?" Or "oh come ON. Now that he's been shot and lost his gun, NOW he can jump over walls and run along telephone wires?"

Seriously, your house rule is good and I endorse it.

Ha!  Right on.

Mark and I are playing this weekend.  If he gives the charge rule a thumbs-up, we'll play it and let you know how it goes.

Thanks for clarifying the 'hexes' references. Reading the rules I was pretty sure I got it all, but I kept on thinking somehow I missed some page about hexes somewhere.

Awesome, awesome game. I can't wait to go to my parent's place and dig some boxes of lego out of storage, I think I may have to buy a few sets on the way home...

I was looking through the rules the other day, and came up with a question.  How do dual range weapon attachments take damage?  Do they lose one die at a time or are they destroyed in one hit like other weapons?

They're destroyed in one hit, same as any attachment.

Thank you.

I have another question.  I think this was covered somewhere else, but I can't remember where.  What range does Spotting work at?

Direct fire range only.

Hey, what about a yellow d8 for HtH spotting?

Now I know it says in the rules that you can have a maximum of three weapons, but with the optional rule of having one weapon cover two ranges and the other optional rule of having two weapons at one range, would it be outside the realm of possibility to allowing a mech to carry a maximum of four weapons?

Oh, yes. Sure.

Not really a rules question, but having just grabbed the PDF (and loving it!) I've got two things to ask:

1) roughly what size are these guys working out to?  I'm going to the local department store in about 10 minutes and I'm grabbing some Lego kits to get started up - about how large a thing should I be aiming for?

2) Vincent, any more news on new/updated rules stuffs?

Looking forward to getting my Lego-Mecha-fightin' on!

I should probably know this already, but I just need to know for sure. Are Red Dice for different ranges rolled separately (as if they were different colors)?

You get to declare only one target, so you roll only one set of red dice, the red dice for your weapon(s) at that range.

Hey vincent, just got the game, and excited to play. my brothers and i are already planning our armies and such.

i just have a question concerning weapons. We were noticing that artillery weapons have an unlimited range, ignore cover, and take up the same attachment slot and roll the same dice as do direct fire weapons. So what then are the use of direct fire. Wouldnt it just be best for all mechs to be equipped with nothing but artillery? Do direct fire have anything over artillery?

Thankyou.

nova3k: I think I got this one. Artillery range starts where direct fire range ends. If you're close enough to be in direct fire range, you can't use your artillery.

Adam's right!

Also, does artillery really ignore cover? If it does, oops! Cover should count against artillery.

I just heard the podcast.

Why can't you make a good mech out of Pick-a-Brick parts? They've got "Plate 1X1 W. Up Right Holder", the tap, the nozzle, the T-piece, and the battle droid body. It seems like all the joint pieces you could possibly want right there.

Wow, do i feel stupid. of course after you answer my question i notice it mentioned twice in the core rulebook.

now i have another clarification i need:

From what i understand, a round of combat goes thusly...

all mechs roll their initiative dice to determine order of play.

they play in that order (unless otherwise overwritten by combat order)

after the last mech goes, all dice in play are discarded, then new initiatives are rolled and order repeats.

My question is if your mech takes damage by losing attachments, does his initiative go up? For example, billy was a 3 attachment 2 initiative mech, and it lost one of its attachments. does it now become a 3 initiative mech?

@mrweasley

I have built all my mechs with pickabrick parts. They were all designed beforehand with the LDD as well. i find myself lacking very little.

i just prefer to go to the source rather than through bricklink

Hey guys, a friend of mine just discovered a little something about LDD that you guys may be able to make use of.

When you make a model in LDD and hit "Check Price", it includes the price of the instruction booklet - and you must buy a booklet. Take a few minutes and manually convert your creations into Pick-A-Brick and you will save yourself quite a bit - I just turned a $26 .lxf into a $14 PaB order.

This was asked a really long time ago, and I don't know why I'm wandering around Vincent's website answering people's months-old questions, but I'm'a doin' it anyway!

Nova3k, we tried playing it that way and we lost track all the time. Plus, it removes much of the advantage of designing a mecha to have good initiative, such as when two are designed to work as a team.

I just wanted to say I really love Mechaton. I randomly met Luke Crane when visiting NY in the summer of 2006, and he told me about the game. Last summer I bought the rule book and I've played one offs 10-15 times, introducing the game to new players each time.

For the last months I've been planning the startup of an Oslo-league. I just found your campaign rules draft today, and they look smashing. I didn't know anything was released yet and was considering hacking something together myself.

I'm an avid BloodBowl player, and my drafts for campaign house rules look somewhat like blood bowl when it comes to squad management between matches. But it doesn't feel right.

I've fallen completely in love with your campaign rules for two reasons. First of all they merge completely with the scoring system of the one offs. That makes it much easier to explain them to someone, especially if they have played a one off or two already.

Secondly, and more importantly, because it doesn't contain any experience or leveling or buying systems. You have that in BloodBowl league play, and it does two bad things for the game. One is that some players will care more about building their team than winning the league. That will make league play boring unless everyone share the same agenda for the game or you have enough players that 3+ players compete for points and 3+ players can compete for the "best" build. But that's only an annoying side effect.

The more troublesome problem with the build agenda is that builders will not play ruthlessly with their most valued resources unless they run no risk of loosing them. And if their most precious figures are killed you run the risk of the player killing the mood of the game by guilting the attacker, or just quitting the league because it's not fun anymore.

But I wonder two things: Do the campaign rules work with more than 3 players? And if so, should we add more objectives for each player?

I really like the concept of a campaign doomsday clock but it makes one thing harder and that's leaving a flexibility to play matches without every player present. Maybe you could add the option of letting players play matches where you don't adjust campaign wide score but the winner get's to take an objective point from the loser? and no ticking the clock after the match? I dunno. I think I'll try something like that.

(and to pick up a really old thread: a big advantage with the "no ranged weapons, get a green d8"-rule is that a mech will always be able to get one die for defence and one for movement, until the very bitter end. I think that makes the last couple of rounds more exciting.)

Also I put together this a couple of months ago. It's a starter set for mechaton players that lets you put together 6 mechs in neutral colours with some equipment.

I made it to let my friends get the pieces they needed to start building their own robots without buying tons of different sets to get all the special pieces. Combined with a couple of small creator-series sets it should give plenty of options.

It seems like two bits are out of stock at the moment, but they are still in the designer software, so it should sort itself out. It's directly based on your standard mech from the rule book.

I'm not sure about where to ask this, so I'll do it here.  Has anyone put together a mech with two Spotting attachments?  Do you get to use them both at the same time?

I've never seen it in play, come to think of it. By the rules as written, you wouldn't get to place two spots, you'd just get to roll two yellow dice. Same as how if you have two movement attachments you don't get to move twice, or if you have two weapons you don't get to make two attacks.

So there are some rumors floating around of rules updates.  Confirm, Deny, No Comment?

Confirm! No further comment.